I may not know many of you and so I'm not sure if my choice of discussion will really even be relevant, but I didn't really feel like getting into discussion about if we should morally choose to buy Christmas presents over helping to feed a starving child in Namibia or help give clean drinking water to the poor in India.
The two terms I use above are adjectives often used to describe weather systems that bring storms. During the storm season of 2007 in Arkansas, I was completely intrigued with the weather systems that came through this state.
I'll preface this by saying that I've always been a weather geek. When I was in my early elementary school days, I would grab the news papers in our house and flip straight to the weather sections to see what I could expect outside. It wasn't until my parents broke it to me that meteorologist were being replaced by computers that I decided on a degree in IT.
I had never before seen what happened in 2007 and it definitely led me to some questions and potentially a revelation. Weather systems generally move from West to East in America, however that year, they didn't seem to move at all. Storms would pop-up across the region, and then they would kinda stay stationary until phasing out to nothing again. There weren't very many major frontal boundaries, just one big "unstable atmosphere" for many month's it seemed.
I was completely dumbfounded at why there was no movement to so many of these storms.
What I came to make of it that has completely changed my perspective on the weather is that God noticed that there were area's of the Earth that had too much water and some that didn't have enough and so He decided it was time to take one season out of the year and even up the score in a few places.
To imagine that God has such specific control over where rain drops fall really shook my paradigm that the rain just falls wherever it wants to.
So here's the relevance to my pondering: How does this weather theory(or theology) explain extreme floods and droughts? Can we admit to believing that God has such specific control over the weather even when the human devastation is so broad?
If this topic is too weird to discuss, feel free to talk about the difference between being Broke vs being Poor.
13 comments:
I'm a little unsure what your question is. Maybe you can restate it. I think you're asking: how much does God control the weather and how much do we?
In China, especially right before the Olympics, officials were shooting rockets into the sky to control when and whether it rained in Beijing. Some rockets dispelled the clouds and others seeded them so that it would rain. When they were pushing the clouds away, they often floated south to Shanghai near where I was staying. When I heard this, I lost my breath. Now they're controlling the weather too? It seems ominously evil. But then, so did surgery when it was first practiced I'm sure.
The older I get, the harder it is for me to imagine God directly involving himself in the operation of the earth on a fulltime basis. I guess that makes me a deist, which I don't want to be. But it fits with His role as protector of our free will. I think He intercedes according to a plan that we know nothing about and otherwise lets us steward creation.
Branching off in another direction, here's an interesting article somewhat along these lines discussing how weather and other forces have shaped earth: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/02/science/02eart.html?_r=1&hp
I guess I'm not sure what is being asked either. I'm not sure if I am suppose to comment on whether God controls every insignificant aspect of the weather or if I'm suppose to comment on whether extreme weather is a way of determining if God is good or evil
So I'm going to respond the the question you should be asking.
I with out a doubt believe that Miley Cyrus is better than the Jonas Brothers.
(serisouly though I'll comment later after I see what question everyone else is answering)
What if God was a woman?
"how much does God control the weather?" is a simpler way to ask my question I suppose.
Sorry I haven't posted a book review for the month either. Honestly, other than the Bible, the only book I've been able to pick up is "For Men Only" and "For Women Only" which my wife and I are reading together.
I'll spare you guys another sucky post on that one.
I think the weather is one of the many forces of "chaos" which are outside (by his choice) of his direct control. These would include disease, natural disasters, etc. I think we live in the simultaneous presence of sin, chaos, evil, and death ALONGSIDE hope, beauty, life, and the advancing, redemptive kingdom of God. As a result, I am comfortable saying that sometimes God can and does intervene on our behalf even with things like weather, but I don't think that God is directly responsible for every random terrible thing like hurricanes and earthquakes. I think the "everything happens for a reason" theology is misleading. God can and does make some good come out of even bad things, but he is not responsible for the bad things (at least not always).
The bottom line here, for me, is that God chooses to let us live in a realm of moral choice, and as a result of that there is both good and evil; order and chaos; God's presence and God's apparent absence... all at once.
I agree with Jimmy. That it is an act of Chaos. That God will affect it when he chooses but otherwise just lets it do what ever. (I have a slight obsession with Chaos though so maybe I'm bias.)
I recently read the book Apocalypse 2012. It is a very good book and I recommend it to all. The majority of the book is a science discussion about nature. While the author make no claim to believe in God and rarely speaks of religion, after reading that book I have never been more convinced of God's existence.
The inter-connectivity of the Universe is staggering. How solar flares affect storm intensity, how the rotation of our galaxy affects the sun, how removing iron for the earth has cause an electrical build up in the atmosphere which maybe why Earth's magnetic field...blah blah blah...
So while I don't believe God controls the weather, but rather set it up to sustain and control itself. I do believe that you can see God in the weather, and determine from it who God is. In other words, while I disagree that God controls the weather, I don't think that should in anyway lessen your revelation or sense of wonder at it, because it is a reflection of God's power.
(Deleted my last comment to correct spelling errors.)
I hope someone can step in and speak for the other side of this debate: God controlling the weather. Conversely, I also hope someone else can substantially support the growing consensus that God allows weather to be chaotic. Why does that idea make the most sense to some of us? Is it just because we can't understand the weather and it seems bad, so we can't attribute it to God.
This understanding of the world seems to be a Christian reaction to the devastation of faith that occurred in the 19th century after Darwin, Nietzsche, and Freud pummelled it nearly to death. Up until then, it seems like the majority of people saw nature as fully submissive to God's will. Should we in fact, as Christians, ignore the growing consensus of doubt in the "world".
There were rumblings of doubt here and there over time, of course. Just before the scientists started weighing in, Melville posed the agonizing question in Moby Dick. The white whale, which represents Nature, destroys an entire crew and a ship pursuing him. Is that God's malice? Ahab thinks so and wants desperately to get revenge for the leg that Moby Dick bit off, so he wants desperately for there to be a personality in Moby Dick that he can punish back. But in the end he faces just a void symbolized by the whiteness of the whale that crushes humanity indifferently. There is nothing behind nature.
So now that there have been theories that support Melville's proposal, there is a consensus that God is removed from nature. I want to hear Thomas say more about how he views God's role in nature. Does nature have a personality and is that personality God? The Bible seems to say so, especially the Old Testament. In Isaiah 45:7-12
"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. You heavens above, rain down righteousness; let the earth open wide, let salvation spring up, let righteousness grow with it; I, the LORD, have created it. Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker, to him who is but a potsherd among potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, 'What are you making?' DOES YOUR WORK SAY, 'HE HAS NO HANDS?' Woe to him who says to his father, 'What have you begotten?' or to his mother, 'What have you brought to birth?' and so on . . .
Nic cited this, saying we can see His character in the weather. Does that mean God does control the weather and is just both terrible and good beyond our understanding, appearing chaotic as a result? I'd rather accept that than be an ignorant piece of clay.
Hey, I've finally finished my classes and am able to write again, so I'm back!
I'm not so sure I can agree with the, "God controls the weather" side (sorry, Joe). However, I would also not go to the other extreme and say that the weather is like a computer program and God has set it up and left it alone. I think the truth is in the middle.
Genesis says God not only cursed man but also cursed the earth (Gen. 3.17). This is why Paul writes about the earth groaning to be free (Rom. 8.18-24). Therefore I believe God does not cause bad weather and disasters but allows these things to happen because of sin.
I say this because my parents who live in West Tennessee had the strangest summer. While I was home, from July 4th until August 28, we had no rain. I saw those fronts coming at us and stall in Arkansas. It was the thought of Genesis and Romans that would go through my mind as I saw what was happening to my Dad. He had to watch both his corn and bean crops whither away.
To describe my views on God controlling the weather, I think of it as a computer program where God is able to go in and change things as he wants. Although it is does not work for every situation, it does help us to know we are not being rewarded or punished for our righteousness or lack of. This helps us understand how we can control the weather in a limited role. We imitate God. We're in his image.
Weather is a complex system, with many interrelated variables. Like any system, the variables operate under a fixed set of rules that can be modeled. Today’s science lacks the mathematical capability (and perhaps computer processing power) to build a model with even a modicum of accuracy. Hence, such a seemingly random system lends itself to association with divine providence. I would venture to speculate that it will not always be so. One day in the not too distant future, we will be able to cross this topic off the long list of subjects where man has explained away his ignorance with God.
Dear Nick,
I like your name.
Let's be friends :D
Love,
Nic
P.S. I think your argument that the weather is too complex for mere man to understand (even with computer aid) is more of an argument for God's existence and control of the weather. If you look at something like a watch or computer you may wonder how it works and take it apart to find out, but once you find out how it works do you not still believe that somebody made it? If it is logical to assume that something as simple as a computer has a creator than it should also be logical that something infinitely more complex such as the weather has a creator too. Therefore it is not a far reach to believe that creator still has a hand in it, much in the same way a computer tech upgrades and repairs computers.
I say all that, even though I previously stated that I don't believe God control the weather, to make a point. You can't dismiss God's presence or absence in anything simply by understanding how it works. Those are 2 separate issues. You stated that the weather operates under a "fixed set of rules." That statement to me implies intelligence. Order implies intelligence. Where do these rules come from? Why are they so binding?
The fact that we can't dismiss it as "random" we are forced to ask the question "who/what is controlling it?" Then we are lead to our current question, "how much of it is being controlled?" "Is there no random element at all?" The next step past that is asking, "What does that imply about the person/thing controlling it?"
If the weather was completely random I think we would be more likely to consider it its own god like humanity once believed. I think the more understanding we gain the more monotheistic we become.
It's too bad this month is almost over. I think Nick's contribution is starting to make this conversation more interesting.
Nick, post sooner next month :D
Well, Nic, I have to take Nick's side to an extent here and bring into the discussion an idea from "The God Delusion" which he inspired me to read. The author, Dawkins, uses an even better illustration for the apparent order of nature: it's like a hurricane passing through a scrap metal yard and constructing a 747 jet complete with plush passenger seats and working television monitors. Creationists say the chances of there randomly being so much "order" in nature are so slim that it makes more sense for there to be an intelligent creator. But Dawkins points out that the chances of there being an intelligent creator are even slimmer. As complicated as the 747 is, how much more complicated is the creator? And where did he come from?
Order does not necessarily imply intelligence. At least from a logical standpoint.
Joe,
I'm sorry but that argument doesn't make sense to me. At least not the way it's presented. Statistics are a terrible direction to take this in my opinion.
First, you are saying the argument that increases the chance God exists is irrelevant because the chances of God existing are so small.
Second, you are trying to calculate existence with Statistics. I honestly was speechless after I read that.
Third you are saying something can't exist because of how complex it is. (Which lets face it complexity has little to do with existence. In fact it has nothing to do with it.)
Forth, where did God come from? Where did anything come from? Origin has little to do with existence either.
Fifth, how can order not imply intelligence? Give me an example. Because honestly the statement that order does not imply intelligence from a LOGICAL stand point was statement that baffled me the most.
Can you give me an actual statistical number on what the chances of God existing are? I mean what are the criteria for the variables even? And what variables are there? I mean the whole concept of that statement confuses to no end. Enlightenment me, please.
You can actually calculate the random chance of things falling into a specific order, such as your junk yard airplane. I would never even think to try to calculate the chances of the junk yard existing. How do you statistically calculate the existence of a being?
For that matter what is the statistical chances YOU exist. What are the statistical chances dragons or gryphons exist? I'm very curious how this data is acquired so that I can make up animals and find out the chances of their existence :P
Statistics can't calculate existence. That's the strangest concept I've ever heard.
Order implies design, design implies intelligence. That's not a statistic that's common sense. You would never walk into a city and wonder what horrific explosion built all these sky scrapers. You would assume there was an architect. I believe that goes more so for something more complicated.
As far as the question "where did he come from?" that question annoys me to no end. "Where did matter come from?" would be my response. And I swear if you say it "always existed" then I'm not participating in this conversation anymore. Because then you are just switching one set of implausible for another. It’s hard to believe that anything always existed. "ex nihil nihil fit" - from nothing nothing comes. Something has always been and in my opinion the eternal existence of matter is the least likely
Statistics are easily manipulated to conclude whatever you want them too. Using statistics on either side of the argument I think is a bad direction.
My argument is that there appears to be "rules." An order, a set of laws that everything in the solar system/galaxy/universe goes by A unifying order throughout the whole universe doesn't just imply design it screams it like Kurt Cobain on cocaine. This order is the only reason Science exists.
And yes it does imply a complex creator, that isn't an argument against it. That's irrelevant to the argument. Complexity doesn't imply existence either. He would have to be complex so he doesn't exist? The universe is more complex than a 747 it must not exist? 747 are complex they must not exist either?
I don't know how to respond to the logic of order implies intelligence comment other than, "umm....yes it does." Chaos doesn't imply intelligence. Order does. It is very logical. I would need a lot of explaining and life experience changes to be convinced otherwise. In order to change my mind on that issue you are going to need to start at the beginning. By that I mean speak to me like you would a 5 year old, cause where the logic fails is beyond me.
I almost feel like I'm rambling, if I am I apologize. I also don't want to sound hostile. I would say I am aggressively seeking the truth.
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